tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post1813769611314557738..comments2024-03-23T10:16:21.093-07:00Comments on MattCha's Blog: Elitism, Illuminati, and the Secret Inner Circle of PuerhMatthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02736984697520031171noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-3089678834165855832019-08-10T15:13:47.274-07:002019-08-10T15:13:47.274-07:00Sigi,
Thanks for presenting the option of this te...Sigi,<br /><br />Thanks for presenting the option of this tea discord server to us all!<br /><br /> I also forgot to mention reddit that is also something that’s going on as well . It’s amusing at times but not as suited for deeper discussion I think.<br /><br />PeaceMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02736984697520031171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-19619561940258141082019-08-10T15:04:55.187-07:002019-08-10T15:04:55.187-07:00Thomas B.,
I also totally agree with you and marc...Thomas B.,<br /><br />I also totally agree with you and marco that the privatization of the internet is more of a societal shift. <br /><br />When I first started drinking puerh I was fortunate to sit around tea tables drinking some decent stuff early on and I don’t think it was a waste on me but rather gave me an immediate advantage. The difference here is, as Alex stated above, I was drinking with others much wiser and more experienced. Drinking it alone would not be as advantageous..... it was their sample so essentially free... affording to buy this stuff by yourself is another thing all together....<br /><br />Thanks for offering another different newcomer perspective on this issue... I raise a cup to you and invite you to sit around this cyberspace tea table anytime.<br /><br />PeaceMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02736984697520031171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-34500502382126660602019-08-10T04:33:49.247-07:002019-08-10T04:33:49.247-07:00Hey Matt,
This was a good post and it's somet...Hey Matt,<br /><br />This was a good post and it's something I do think people should be made aware of. When it comes to publicly sharing sources and discussing Puer, I've really been enjoying the Tea Discord server. I myself do a lot of tmall/taobao trawling for interesting young sheng, and I always share my sources. Not only does it help everyone get a better picture of what's out there, I also benefit from getting everyone's impressions of the things I post. I consider it a good way of keeping this sort of discussion in a public space while also having it in a place that's easier to reference than, say, Instagram. I'd recommend anyone - newcomers and long-time Puer enthusiasts alike - to come check it out sometime. Here's an invite link: https://discord.gg/teaSigihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09653797883394292335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-77903488914655132362019-08-09T20:05:34.348-07:002019-08-09T20:05:34.348-07:00I'm also a newcomer, having only started drink...I'm also a newcomer, having only started drinking raw puer about a year ago. I don't know what "the scene" was like 10 years ago, but I have observed similar trends in other areas - with communities moving to more proprietary platforms instead of public newsgroups, forums, and blogs. I think Marco has it right.<br /><br />I have come across a bit of elitism, but I'm not that bothered by it. Sure, there are people who say effectively "this tea would be wasted on you", but 1) they're probably right, and 2) I couldn't afford the tea anyway.<br /><br />Maybe in 5 or 10 years, I will have enough experience to appreciate the really great tea, but by then, a cake of reasonable quality will probably cost more than my car... Still, I'll continue to learn as much as I can. This blog, and the others in your sidebar, have been a great resource so far.Thomas B.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-83634554847586965722019-08-07T19:36:58.479-07:002019-08-07T19:36:58.479-07:00A further response and some tea wisdom by someone ...A further response and some tea wisdom by someone who was once very very active on social media but has recently been less...<br /><br />https://deathbytea.blogspot.com/2019/08/no-one-cares-whats-in-your-closet.html<br /><br />PeaceMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02736984697520031171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-70299757327526761732019-08-05T21:36:51.555-07:002019-08-05T21:36:51.555-07:00*freedom, objectivity, and independence of puerh k...*freedom, objectivity, and independence of puerh knowledge is threatened*Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02736984697520031171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-90421234828170891432019-08-05T20:53:15.550-07:002019-08-05T20:53:15.550-07:00Anonymous,
I would really like to thank you for s...Anonymous,<br /><br />I would really like to thank you for speaking on behalf of the new comers out there. It seems way too far fetched to imagine that any newcomer would think of it differently than elitist.<br /><br />Even the commentors above can’t say that it isn’t without qualifying that it could be seen this way.<br /><br />Much peaceMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02736984697520031171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-72898067105121198562019-08-05T20:34:34.110-07:002019-08-05T20:34:34.110-07:00Marco,
Haha haha... you got me laughing out loud ...Marco,<br /><br />Haha haha... you got me laughing out loud when I read that rich right wing comment... it made me realize that i incidentally published some kind of leftist puerh tea manifesto here... didn’t realize it was that but re-reading it with that filter sure makes it sound that way... haha<br /><br />I like how you put that about the privatization of puerh knowledge....I agree. I would go even farther and say the freedom and independence of puerh knowledge is actually threatened.<br /><br />For instance, why was it so hard for me to even bring this topic up in the first place? Why haven’t these issues been debated more vigorously when they were brought up on previous two comments threads on TeaDB by commentor TL (thanks for pushing the issue by the way)? Why is it that the brave newbie comment below has to be anonymous?<br /><br />I will tell you this: if I was so involved with all these Facebook groups, private servers, slacks, tea Illuminati, etc. I don’t think I could have published this post. <br /><br /> Academic researchers, and those who work in the press can probably speak to the dangers of going in the direction things are going much better than I can. <br /><br />Thanks for speaking more transparently about Teas We Like just like I thanked Alex about talking in more detail about what is involved with the Taiwanese Facebook auctions.<br /><br />I also wondered how all of this pressure to keep sources quiet, and the inter-connectivity to these insider groups would threaten the independence and quality of Dead Leaves Tea Club group buys, and Teas We Like offerings. You touched on this a bit.<br /><br />Keep up the good fight and many thanks to your contribution through your comment above, and in a wider sense with your blog and Teas We Like.<br /><br />PeaceMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02736984697520031171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-14189108419842985152019-08-05T06:53:28.646-07:002019-08-05T06:53:28.646-07:00As a newcomer, I must acknowledge the strange elit...As a newcomer, I must acknowledge the strange elitism and mystique cultivated by much of the community. Clearly the non-Western pu scene is full of bravado and secrecy (no doubt influenced by those with profit motives), but why choose to mimick that here? Most of us are here simply to learn about, drink and enjoy tea, not to build wealth from our collections. I applaud you for pushing for greater transparency and keeping the community in check!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-21745327907025837542019-08-03T15:26:32.773-07:002019-08-03T15:26:32.773-07:00Excellent critique you offer in your post, Matt. R...Excellent critique you offer in your post, Matt. Reasoned criticism is a huge service. I wanted to add a few comments and my voice to the chorus.<br /><br />First re. elitism: the most disappointing thing to me is that so much discussion today occurs on private servers, and that includes Facebook, Slack etc. It's not so much elitism as part of the general trend of the privatization of the web, and I think that people with vested interests and conflicts of interest tend to flourish in such private channels, since their claims are not available for the scrutiny of the wider audience. Besides independent blogs like ours or especially TeaDB, the other alternative we have now is https://www.teaforum.org/. I think it would be great if Teaforum.org could reach critical mass, becoming a major resource going forward. It's already pretty much there, IMO. <br /><br />One of the reasons, I think, for the success of private tea channels, has to do with moderation. Few have the time to actively moderate an online forum, and just as in the rest of the www, trolls, over-sharers, bullies tend to dominate. So, we flee to private channels. Is this elitism? To someone who feels they are excluded, it certainly would seem like it. But as I said before, while the private channel may seem like a safe refuge, it is probably an illusion. It simply gives more subtle manipulators access to an inner circle. It is in many ways easier to be led astray in a small isolated community -- I see this happening all the time nowadays and try to remain vigilant that it isn't happening to me...<br /><br />Second re. sharing information about finds: there are some people around who feel they are entitled to this kind of information. This sense of entitlement is pervasive and it's definitely not concentrated in the young, the poor, or in the left-wing (what up, rich right-wing narcissists!). What I'm trying to say is two things: first I am more inclined to share with people who I trust (because of the obvious risks involved: relationships with sources, prices, availability) and second, sharing is a 2-way street. <br /><br />I also wanted to say a few words about Teas We Like. It's still very much a work in progress, and so far is going well. The way it works now is that we have a small group of organizers (hovering around 3-5 depending on personal circumstance) who work only in their spare time, and we seek out teas usually from collectors in Taiwan or Malaysia, with more tba. We bring in more tasters for a larger tasting panel (6-10, depending) to help us decide which teas make the cut. We have two main criteria and it's difficult to balance them: the tea has to be an _outstandingly_ good example of its genre, and the price has to be such that we can beat the market pretty easily. We can only ensure good prices if we buy in bulk, usually multiple tongs or jian, and we keep profit margin silly low (just take a look at our $/g and you will see what I mean). We are small-scale and we are not trying to compete against the major vendors with a broad slate of teas -- instead we just want to make a small amount of really top stuff available for our most dedicated (but not necessarily rich) tea head friends. <br /><br />By the way, we initially planned to make all group buy organizers, curators, and tasting panel members public on our site, but many of the people involved in our project were already getting hassled (it happens a lot) and so that's why we keep personal info to a minimum, for now. <br />marcohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15299689052411315062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-75332038103248515592019-08-01T23:30:43.413-07:002019-08-01T23:30:43.413-07:00TeaMasters (Stephane),
I agree that the Western p...TeaMasters (Stephane),<br /><br />I agree that the Western puerh vendors do a good job of presenting a passionate puerh product year after year. <br /><br />For example the 2019 white2tea Is A Gift is truly something that I had not experienced in such small leaf variety. I agree with Twodogs assessment that it is something that rarely makes it to the Western market. Your comment make me think of this one.<br /><br />I’m not sure if people don’t have the time they do compared to 15 years ago or just people (and society as a whole) nowadays don’t have the patience and attention that is required to dive deeply and emerse slowly into puerh.<br /><br />I raise a cup to you and all of those who join us in this slow deep discussion of tea!<br /><br />PeaceMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02736984697520031171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-34689206367950213902019-08-01T21:23:43.475-07:002019-08-01T21:23:43.475-07:00Matt,
I apologise - my brain managed to repeatedl...Matt,<br /><br />I apologise - my brain managed to repeatedly miss the sincere interpretation of your comment. Play on, and pay the fool no mind -_-Alexhttp://deadleaves.clubnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-36501542641061102522019-08-01T20:55:48.083-07:002019-08-01T20:55:48.083-07:00Hi Matt,
Just to make sure I haven't misinter...Hi Matt,<br /><br />Just to make sure I haven't misinterpreted your tone, is there an implication that my comments obligate me to step up, that I haven't, or that I wouldn't?<br /><br />In any case, I'd suggest anyone seeking to get in touch try OolongOwl's slack server first - DLC doesn't get enough traffic that I check it with much regularity.Alexhttp://deadleaves.clubnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-22688979594665477772019-08-01T19:57:34.737-07:002019-08-01T19:57:34.737-07:00Alex,
Thanks for giving us a little tutorial on s...Alex,<br /><br />Thanks for giving us a little tutorial on some of the finer points of using the Taiwanese Facebook Tea auctions.<br /><br />More importantly thanks for volunteering to help any rookies out there who are interested in using this service. Paying it forward just like the person who first helped you.... very admirable on your behalf!<br /><br />https://deadleaves.club/contact/<br /><br />PeaceMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02736984697520031171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-49390007795351593962019-08-01T15:55:20.916-07:002019-08-01T15:55:20.916-07:00Hi Matt,
With respect to your comment about greed...Hi Matt,<br /><br />With respect to your comment about greedy deep-pocketed collectors being an unlikely concern, this is something that JScherg has mentioned to me recently as well, and I'll defer to your collective judgement on that issue since the only basis for that belief on my part is conversation I read around the traps leading up to the comment.<br /><br />If I might jump in on the following:<br /><br />>we are not talking nuclear codes we are talking tea access. What is the worst that could happen if a rookie has the codes?<br /><br />Specifically with respect to the TW auction groups, there are a number of potential concerns. We (as westerners who generally don't speak Chinese) are guests in a group composed of serious people. As such, there are a customs to observe that aren't necessarily intuitive to Western consumers.<br /><br />For example, there is generally a minimum of discussion/Q&A in those groups, and for vendors there, it is more onerous to communicate with English-speakers. If a rookie jumps in asking questions and bothering vendors in a way that would be normal in the context of Western pu'er vendors, it looks bad on us all as a visible minority.<br /><br />Likewise, bidders are expected to understand the various auction formats, adhere to the rules of the group, and (this is a big one) have a contingency in place getting tea from Taiwan to wherever they live (ie already be set up with EZStar and be comfortable with the process of engaging their services).<br /><br />Sniping auctions last-second, out of the blue (ie without having already expressed an interest by placing an earlier serious bid) is normal in many auction settings, but is likely to be looked upon as gauche and aggressive behaviour in the TW groups.<br /><br />Our continued presence in the TW groups is plausibly contingent upon us fitting in and not making arses of ourselves (as a visible outside group), and for that reason it may be viewed by some as 'safest' for veterans to induct serious rookies into the auction groups, rather than broadcast the information 'passively' to a broad audience. Certainly, the smoothness of my first forays into TW auctions were the result of guidance by generous, more-knowledgeable teafriends who saved me from myself.<br /><br />The validity of the issues I've raised are, of course, up for debate, and could reasonably be seen as pretentious gatekeeping in and of themselves.Alexhttp://deadleaves.clubnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-72639707489863687522019-08-01T14:56:29.529-07:002019-08-01T14:56:29.529-07:00TeaMasters(Stephane),
The conversation in these c...TeaMasters(Stephane),<br /><br />The conversation in these comments has shifted to talk of those who try to attain the very best Puerh. If you have enough money, we all know what those are and how to get them. As you state, it’s no secret.<br /><br />I think the Western puerh Illuminati focus more on puerh that is very good quality AND also very very good value.<br /><br />This speaks to a kind of division in those who buy puerh.<br /><br />There are those who try to attain the best of the best or the best they can buy but really we all know how to get there. There is no bragging rights here just flashy showmanship.<br /><br />Most however are trying to attain very high (perceived) quality while paying the least for it. That is the real trick that is hard to pull off and this is mainly the focus of these secret sources. Everyone wants cheap and good and know that they got a steal. On the other hand no one wants to admit they overpaid- this is human nature.<br /><br />As you are getting at: If you don’t know how to appreciate something than how will you even know if what is right in front of you is valuable?<br /><br />Thanks for these thoughts and comments.<br /><br />PeaceMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02736984697520031171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-74713598385489736472019-08-01T02:31:58.686-07:002019-08-01T02:31:58.686-07:00Matt,
I'd say the secret is that there's n... Matt,<br />I'd say the secret is that there's not much secrecy, just a very quickly shifting reality! I pretty much agree with what Shah8 wrote. I recently posted some of my own reflections on the subject in this article: https://teamasters.blogspot.com/2019/07/le-tout-proche-avenir-du-haut-de-gamme.html<br />It's in French, but should translate well with Google translate.<br />In a nutshell, top puerhs used to be exported (Hong Kong, Taiwan) until 2006/8, but now they stay in China where they can achieve the best prices. The market there is going elitist with the best stuff (which necessarily is very limited). Foreigners (even Taiwanese) don't have much influence on puerh anymore. I'm very impressed by those Western vendors who focus on fresh puerh and how they are able to adapt to such quickly shifting conditions. <br />Also, fewer people seem to have time to explore the world of tea as deeply as 15 years ago. There are few shortcuts in tea. Even pointing someone in the right direction isn't enough if he hasn't had the experience of tea excellence. (And most of the people who have asked me for sources turned out to be tea sellers or about to become one!)<br />But it's nice to see some discussion on a blog. It reminds me of the good old times! I raise my cup to you and those times!TeaMastershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02433657904904185875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-33925052321120976202019-07-31T22:02:57.555-07:002019-07-31T22:02:57.555-07:00Cwyn N,
Thanks for presenting this concept to the...Cwyn N,<br /><br />Thanks for presenting this concept to the conversation which is totally true. I think Shah8’s Badger and Blade Sheng of the Day is the most true to a long running diary format but even that has a lot of theatrical narrative in it.<br /><br />It’s similar to “in real life” vs “online” or The way a person really is vs their online teablogger identity. In this way “actual puerh buying and drinking” vs “what teas are reviewed or what source or knowledge is actually revealed” are not, in reality, the same.<br /><br />PeaceMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02736984697520031171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-19533068576443212582019-07-31T21:46:17.305-07:002019-07-31T21:46:17.305-07:00Shah8,
In the West we have the puerh Illuminati, ...Shah8,<br /><br />In the West we have the puerh Illuminati, in China the puerh triad, ok, got it... hahaha<br /><br />Joking aside there is much cultural baggage to weigh through when learning about puerh and the way of tea in Asia. Korea was probably not the best place to learn about puerh but during the period before the bubble popped a few puerh tea houses popped up on my block, so the convenience of it was nice.<br /><br />I agree with your assessment of the best stuff vs what insiders fall for really. Why is one tea very hot when there is another better tea sitting right beside it but nobody is writing about that one? It’s fad driven a lot of the time.<br /><br />PeaceMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02736984697520031171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-6403127915575368252019-07-31T21:29:13.232-07:002019-07-31T21:29:13.232-07:00Alex,
I agree with Nug’s assessment of your stell...Alex,<br /><br />I agree with Nug’s assessment of your stellar linguistic ability... hahaha<br /><br />I think I edited out just a lot of raw emotion and specific finger pointing of hypocrisy that was a bit mean and picky and counterproductive really.<br /><br />Such as the first link in the last TeaDB article here:<br /><br />https://teadb.org/puerh-inventory/#comment-639102<br /> <br />Among others...<br /><br />The one thing about your comments from a year ago that I don’t completely agree with is your Boogeyman argument that you present about revealing sources.<br /><br />Your comment states that sources can’t be revealed because then these teas will be bought up by a single buyer or collector and it will make then them more scarce and drive up prices.<br /><br />The history of such things in the tea world actually show the opposite. The most famous and first example was Hobbes revealing the Taobao source of the famous 2001 Ding Xiang Yi Bang cake and specific instructions that walked you through how to use Taobao to buy those cakes. Even a year after that post they were still available.<br /><br />Scott Wilson recently commented on TeaDB to the accusation that one or a few people just buy out a whole production. He said that it is false and that it is usually a sustained effort of a wider group of people who buy it out (Illuminati of course).<br /><br />I agree that TeaChat is a treasure trove. I have been spying on teaforum a lot more these days... thanks for mentioning that.<br /><br />PeaceMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02736984697520031171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-12162101614702368022019-07-31T15:54:06.724-07:002019-07-31T15:54:06.724-07:00Nug,
James stated pretty clearly in that last pos...Nug,<br /><br />James stated pretty clearly in that last post how far he will go as far as transparency goes. He has put more time and energy into putting out content than anyone as ever in the English speaking world.ever. So he has at least stated his policy on this.<br /><br />On Elitism- we are not talking nuclear codes we are talking tea access. What is the worst that could happen if a rookie has the codes? <br /><br />I know that it will not be the end of the tea word as we know it because there is lots of great tea out there and part of it is simply the perception of Value, scarcity, or acquired tastes or concept of what constitutes great tea.<br /><br />Great conversation points.<br /><br />PeaceMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02736984697520031171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-8129173201703955042019-07-31T14:54:19.579-07:002019-07-31T14:54:19.579-07:00Nug,
Thanks for the added perspective on the cult...Nug,<br /><br />Thanks for the added perspective on the cultural nuances. Having learned what I know around the tea tables in Korea for years before purchasing my first cakes, I understand where you are going with this. Great work on translating even a small amount of this body of knowledge- it helps.<br /><br />PeaceMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02736984697520031171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-16102333312234174982019-07-30T23:57:28.204-07:002019-07-30T23:57:28.204-07:00I think there is some confusion about when bloggin...I think there is some confusion about when blogging is a diary exercise of real life, or a deliberate construction for entertainment or professional reasons. I would suggest that Hobbes, OolongOwl and myself amongst others (perhaps you and Teadb also) construct our blogs deliberately and are not purely "diarists." Poems, stories, purchasing tea expressly for a blog post are examples of construction, not journaling. Blogs may somewhat read as "journal-like," but are probably more planned that way rather than as realism. This is perhaps why journal-type blogs fade quickly, people start them and run out of material other than "I drank T8653 today, it’s coming along fine." Not much to say. Perhaps this notion of "elitism" comes from a particular type of writing on tea forums rather than any reality. Cwynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17990034926886208526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-8666689356476932572019-07-30T21:04:46.603-07:002019-07-30T21:04:46.603-07:00I will merely say that this issue vis a vis the Ma...I will merely say that this issue vis a vis the Mainland is far more pernicious than anything that goes on here. Everything that the West really understand, was from the benefit of Taiwanese discussions, and to a lesser extent Hong Kongers.<br /><br />There are few real teablogs, by hobbyists who knows much, in the Mainland. Everything that goes on in the Mainland is surrounded by a thousand lies and chicanery in the aid of cartel practices. As the Taiwanese became less prominent past about 2008-10, the broader issues with the total anything goes Mainland attitude came to the fore, and everyone is affected by this.<br /><br />If there was a real Mainland blogging scene, and a real evaluation of various brands in contexts that aren't totally dominated by vested interests and marketers, that would mean that access to good teas is far more democratic, and more people in the West would try their hands at sourcing teas, and the insiders club here would be more marginal. By the way, the US tea market/info is far better than what goes in Europe.<br /><br />Lastly, I think the "insider club" is relatively porous--the main factor is whether you want to spend gobs on money on tea. Also, to my knowledge, what the insider clubs deal with don't really involve absolute qualities--to me, the best teas are relatively public knowledge (for puerh, for yancha, this is an issue). Insiders fall for the hot things, the different things, the new things, and typically, these aren't all that. What truly cool stuff that comes down the pipeline, that stuff was never going to be very public, not in 2008 and not 2019. You still gotta be known and respectful of privacy.shah8https://www.blogger.com/profile/04537529816304128000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1693176331381554957.post-73356172925318668062019-07-30T16:24:59.555-07:002019-07-30T16:24:59.555-07:00Hi Matt,
I'm curious to (utterly confidential...Hi Matt,<br /><br />I'm curious to (utterly confidentially) know what got excised from the bare-all edit, though I won't hold my breath there. If I may offer a handful of disorganised thoughts as someone who's to some extent 'within but without'.<br /><br />I wish that I could distance myself from my position last year, but re-reading it, from my perspective little has changed (the exception being the birth of the co-op/community-focused vendor, which I think is a precious if fragile endeavour. The founders of TWL in particular have done an incredible service in bringing some very special teas to the masses at fair prices). <br /><br />I think there is a natural filtering 'upward' (or inward?) of those who show sufficient seriousness of interest in tea, and I'm still (lacking a feasible alternative) happy setting a sufficiency of enthusiasm and willingness to learn as the bar to clear. It's accessible, non-discriminatory in the manners in which it should be (or at least, no more discriminatory than the consumption-based nature of the hobby itself), and dare I say it, it generates spaces where people of compatible interest-levels and approaches can congregate.<br /><br />Basically everything of worth that I've gained in the pu'er (be it understanding or tea) has been the direct result of engaging with people above me (often unarguably so) and building relationships. The fact of the matter is that if I'd continued drinking alone, my appreciation of pu'er would still be very skewed, and not at all for the better. It's worth noting that of the better stuff that I'm drinking, it's often offered through friends, and in a sufficiently-small quantity that even if it were opened up to everyone, it wouldn't do anyone any good.<br /><br />I think that all this is somewhat-naturally flows from the nature of pu'er appreciation itself. No matter how much you <i>read</i> or <i>talk</i> remotely about the finer points of tea, a large part of the fundamental appreciation is something that (imo) requires thoughtful drinking progressively-better tea, and if you can swing sharing the session with someone who knows more than you, all the better. As they say, "if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room".<br /><br />Regarding the demise of public pu'er discussion, I'm far more inclined to mourn TeaChat than Steepster - the more tea I drink, the less use I seem to get out of tasting notes (especially from randoms whose experience, tastes and reliability are unknown). As it stands, there are a small number (<10) of personal friends whose comments I trust implicitly when it comes to recommendations. TeaChat on the other hand is an Aladdin's cave of valuable discussion (imho).<br /><br />I know that the folks over at teaforum.org are attempting to fill the void, and I know they'd love to have more members and activity.Alexhttp://deadleaves.clubnoreply@blogger.com